So I was just going to reply to "Anonymous'" comment under my last post in the comments section itself, but I thought I'd just go ahead and address this up front. Because I'm mad. If this one person can be SO misinformed, I'm sure there are more. I'm pretty sure this person was just doing it to bait me, because a quick Google search can show how erroneous this post was, but either way. Here goes.
Here's the comment:
This is offensive to me. On SO many levels. We do not, I REPEAT, do not do proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims. Here's the Church's stance on it:
“Without exception, church members must not submit for proxy temple ordinances any names from unauthorized groups, such as celebrities and Jewish Holocaust victims. If members do so, they may forfeit their New FamilySearch privileges [access to the church’s genealogical holdings]. Other corrective action may also be taken.” This has been the policy for well over a decade.
Here's an entire article on it:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53635455-78/mormon-lds-church-members.html.csp#disqus_thread
Another fantastic article on the subject, written by a member of the Jewish faith no less is here:
http://articles.boston.com/2012-02-29/opinion/31106883_1_proxy-baptisms-mormon-temple-mormon-church/2
There are 13,000,000 members of the LDS church. As much as some would love to believe that the Church micromanages every detail of our lives (and as you can tell from this blog that it doesn't or it wouldn't have such potty language), they do not. Mistakes are made. People do things that they shouldn't. There isn't another church in the world that has 100% perfect members who never do anything they shouldn't (otherwise they would have been translated like the City of Enoch). I hope that the people who did go against the church's will in this area know what they did and have apologized. But saying that the church practices this as a whole is completely false.
Let's talk about what "proxy baptisms" are. From www.lds.org (emphasis added):
Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential to the salvation of all who have lived on earth (see John 3:5). Many people, however, have died without being baptized. Others were baptized without proper authority. Because God is merciful, He has prepared a way for all people to receive the blessings of baptism. By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf.
We go into our temples and stand as "proxy" for those who are dead. For those who do not believe, this is tantamount to us "pretending" we are someone else and being dunked under water for them. Even if the church DID do proxy baptisms for Holocaust victims, why would it even matter to someone who does not believe the way we do?
So for you to compare this- a ritual done behind closed doors in our sacred houses of worship- to the systematic murders of 6,000,000 of your own ancestors to me is offensive. It should be offensive to any member of your faith. It cheapens what happened to those people. Then to go ahead and jab me one more time and say that it's equivalent to aborting babies with Down syndrome, again, is offensive. My standing in a pool of water, doing something you don't believe to be true, is the same as aborting a child because they have an extra chromosome? Explain yourself.
To learn more about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints you can visit www.lds.org. To learn more about our temples, please visit http://www.lds.org/church/temples
The Mount Timpanogos Temple, where Lance and I were sealed together for time and all eternity.
Here's the comment:
"Speaking of the subject of this blog...I would really like to hear what you, as a Mormon, think about your church's proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims. I enjoy reading your blog and the blogs of other LDS women, but it truly disturbs me that there has been NO condemnation of this atrocious, violating practice. I speak as the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors. It's particularly troubling that you would so strongly speak out against the abortion of fetuses who test positive for Down Syndrome while at the same time staying silent on this issue, which is, after all, an issue of LIFE -- respect for the lives of these individuals, respect for their religion, respect for their legacy."
This is offensive to me. On SO many levels. We do not, I REPEAT, do not do proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims. Here's the Church's stance on it:
“Without exception, church members must not submit for proxy temple ordinances any names from unauthorized groups, such as celebrities and Jewish Holocaust victims. If members do so, they may forfeit their New FamilySearch privileges [access to the church’s genealogical holdings]. Other corrective action may also be taken.” This has been the policy for well over a decade.
Here's an entire article on it:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53635455-78/mormon-lds-church-members.html.csp#disqus_thread
Another fantastic article on the subject, written by a member of the Jewish faith no less is here:
http://articles.boston.com/2012-02-29/opinion/31106883_1_proxy-baptisms-mormon-temple-mormon-church/2
There are 13,000,000 members of the LDS church. As much as some would love to believe that the Church micromanages every detail of our lives (and as you can tell from this blog that it doesn't or it wouldn't have such potty language), they do not. Mistakes are made. People do things that they shouldn't. There isn't another church in the world that has 100% perfect members who never do anything they shouldn't (otherwise they would have been translated like the City of Enoch). I hope that the people who did go against the church's will in this area know what they did and have apologized. But saying that the church practices this as a whole is completely false.
Let's talk about what "proxy baptisms" are. From www.lds.org (emphasis added):
Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential to the salvation of all who have lived on earth (see John 3:5). Many people, however, have died without being baptized. Others were baptized without proper authority. Because God is merciful, He has prepared a way for all people to receive the blessings of baptism. By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf.
We go into our temples and stand as "proxy" for those who are dead. For those who do not believe, this is tantamount to us "pretending" we are someone else and being dunked under water for them. Even if the church DID do proxy baptisms for Holocaust victims, why would it even matter to someone who does not believe the way we do?
So for you to compare this- a ritual done behind closed doors in our sacred houses of worship- to the systematic murders of 6,000,000 of your own ancestors to me is offensive. It should be offensive to any member of your faith. It cheapens what happened to those people. Then to go ahead and jab me one more time and say that it's equivalent to aborting babies with Down syndrome, again, is offensive. My standing in a pool of water, doing something you don't believe to be true, is the same as aborting a child because they have an extra chromosome? Explain yourself.
To learn more about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints you can visit www.lds.org. To learn more about our temples, please visit http://www.lds.org/church/temples
The Mount Timpanogos Temple, where Lance and I were sealed together for time and all eternity.
Thanks Lexi this was an awesome post and I'm sorry that is was warranted. This is such a touchy spot right now and it seems that a lot of the general public is making incorrect assumptions that this is a "THE CHURCH" problem when it is really individuals who are being disobedient to the requests and stance of the church. It's true, there are deceitful people everywhere, the LDS church is not immune to the inappropriate actions of us humans.
ReplyDeleteWell, John 3:5 may not necessarily be saying what you think it does. There are many different ways that word water can be interpreted, and if you take in the context of the entire Bible, it most likely is not saying literal water. After the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the new testament is very clear that salvation is through faith alone, and that because of our faith we will produce fruits of good works and we will be baptized to proclaim our faith to our community so that we may be held accountable- but regardless salvation comes from grace. Its a hard thing to grasp, that works and actions wont save us, but if we are truly saved we will indeed do those things- not because it saves us but because our faith leads us to do that. Years of studying this, and I still cannot explain it perfectly.(Luke 3:16,Romans 4:16, Eph 2:8, and basically the whole book of James, which is so interesting to study because its different interpretations cause great divided in the different denominations) Its an area in the Bible that divided Christians because it can be interpreted in different ways. I was raised Baptist but would label my self as Non-denominational now, and I have been curious about the Mormon religion. I mean no insult in saying this, and definitely not accusing, but merely having an educated conversation (if you can call commenting a convo). That through out the years, the Mormon faith continually changes its stance on issues as they become socially inappropriate (such as how Black people used to not be allowed to be Mormon, and I must say I have no clue about the above issue with Holocaust victims so I dare not even say anything about it). I would struggle with faith in something that changed. Now, if it was that cut and dry obviously there wouldn't be such debate over what is TRUTH. I know I do not completely understand the faith, but from studying all the different denominations (and actually Mormonisim is so far from the Truth of the Bible that I know that I don't know if I can truly consider it a Christian denomination or a completely different religion all together from my understanding of it) that it seems to have the most unstable doctrine of all major religions. I do not claim to know everything, very far from it, and have never read the Book of Mormon. My knowledge comes from religion classes and my own personal pursuit and faith in God.I truly respect you, I have just always been interested in Mormonism because it seems so absurd to me, but yet so faithfully followed, that I must not understand it so I am always interested in hearing from Mormons and what they believe.
ReplyDeleteI am interested in what you think on how the Bible claims that it is the COMPLETE book of Gods word, and then Joseph Smith discovered the Book of Mormon thousands of years later. And what 1 Timothy 4:1, Gal 1:6-12, has to say about adding to the Bible, false teachings, and especially the last verse of Revelations which so harshly states,
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
Shannon, really the best way to find out what the LDS people believe is to read the Book of Mormon. They are not hard to find. And if you are serious about wanting to understand you need to read it.
DeleteI agree with the above about reading it for yourself. Many people that read it, even if they don't at all feel compelled to join the church, find it to be a great book that speaks of Christ and encourages a testimony of Him throughout. We call the Book of Mormon "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" - not a replacement to the Bible, but a companion to it. I think if more people of other Christian denominations would actually take the time to read it (not with the idea that have to be converted or anything, just give the book a thorough reading and investigation), would find that we all have much in common with one another in our belief and love for Jesus Christ.
DeleteI have to agree regarding reading the book of Mormon. I haven't read it, but I AM reading the Quran right now. Why? Because I have several very dear friends who are Muslim women and I'd like to understand more about their faith and their culture.
DeleteMaybe the book of Mormon should be next on my list of religion books to read...
this is obviously a bias article, but most of what this author claims is what I have been taught about LDS and the contradictory writings to the Bible are what I am curious about. It seems so obvious to me that its unBiblical, and its impossible to know what is really taught behind the church walls because, well, you cannot go in unless you are Mormon... even Mormons can't go all the way in their church unless they are a certain level. Why so much secrecy? Does any of this trouble you, and if not, what am I missing? http://www.av1611.org/jmelton/Mormons.html (read this article) I know you cannot read my tone, but none of this should come off as mocking or mean, I am just very curious.
ReplyDeleteto Shannon above:
ReplyDeleteI would recommend reading this talk by one of our General Authorities Jefferey R. Holland. He addresses in it the quote from revelations that you quoted. It also talks about why we believe that we can have more scripture than just the bible you can find the talk here:
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/my-words-never-cease?lang=eng&query=my+words+never+cease
also, as a side note, if you are truly curious about our church, reading the blogs of LDS people may be a way to find information, but it is certainly not the best way. Blogs are not doctrine, they are the opinions of usually one person, they are usually uncited, and may contain incorrect info. If you would really like to find out about what our church believes, go to lds.org and there is a search bar for the website. Search that website for the points of our doctrine that you are curious about. You could maybe even have missionaries over to your house to answer some of your questions. There are better ways to learn about the Latter Day Saints than blogs, which are written by imperfect people, or religion classes taught by someone who most likely knows nothing correct about our faith.
I wish that you could put tone into text, because I truly hope that you don't take any of this to be offensive. I just wanted to point out some better ways to get info.
First off I want to say I love your blog...And I respect your views and your opinions so anything I say is not against you personally...It's just my views or opinions that I am wanting to express and I hope to do it respectfully even though I am sure we will disagree.
ReplyDeleteI grew up in the LDS Church. Both sides of my family are Mormon. I am inactive and have been for years. I went to church every single Sunday of my life. I went to YW every Tuesday...I did the early Morning Seminary before school during the week...I did the Firesides, the Temple trips, you name it...And I have even performed Baptisms for the dead on many occasions.
As I grew older I questioned some of the Churches teachings...I questioned the history of the Church...I was always told the questions I asked did not need to be answered in this lifetime. I was told we did not need to know some things on this earth. I could not accept that. I cannot follow blindly.
The truth as I know it...And I am sure you will see this differently, and again I am wanting to be very respectful of your beliefs while trying to state my own so please don't take offence....
The truth as I know it is the Mormon church does not want members to ask questions. They are told not to get into discussions or debates with people over church doctrine...I have had many missionaries refuse to continue a discussion because they could not answer the questions. The Mormon church does not want it's members to look deeply into the history because I can promise you if they did there would not be nearly as many members as there are today.
The LDS church has constantly changed direction, the Prophets contradict each others teachings...I would encourage you to actually look up the history of the Mormon Church with an open mind...And then try to do away with ALL the facts that you find starting with Joseph Smith.
See how the accounts of his first vision changed...See how polygamy was brought into practice...AGAINST the laws of the land... Isn't that the 12th Article of Faith...We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law....So when Joseph Smith started marrying 14 year old girls and women who already had husbands the people of the United States had a problem with that. Wouldn't you? That wasn't exactly obeying the laws of the Land now was it?
Look up the Blood Atonement...Look up the Meadows Mountain Massacre...Look into those Temple endowments...Look up Joseph Smiths involvement with the FreeMasonrys and how closely their rituals resemble Temple endowments YEARS before Smith started the Church. Coincidence?
Why were blacks not allowed to hold the Priesthood and then all of the sudden low and behold during the civil rights movement...The church changed its mind!! Convenient.
As for baptisms for the dead...What do you say to Article of Faith #11..."We claim the privilege of worshiping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscious, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, and what they may......
UNTIL they're dead and we go ahead and baptize them Mormon because that's what WE believe! Not good. It's wrong. Plain and simple wrong.
The bottom line about baptizing people who are dead is it's not OUR RIGHT! Jew or non Jew it is simply not our right to even perform these ordinances for people. It does not matter if we believe they have the right to accept or not in the next life...It is insulting to the families of those here on earth. It shows a deep lack of respect. Period. The Mormon Church does not have the right to baptize anyone into their Faith and when they do it shows a disgusting arrogance.
As a former member of this church, you should know that we believe people STILL have the right to reject the baptism in the afterlife. Just because we perform the proxy ordinance, it doesn't FORCE them to do anything, thereby they are still able to "worship Almigthy God according to the dictates of [their] own conscience".
DeleteMy great-grandmother wasn't a fan of the church even after her daughter (my grandmother) joined and raised her family in the church. After my great-grandmother passed, my grandmother performed her ordinances for her, but I've always wondered if she actually accepted them (she was always very stubborn)! It wouldn't surprise me at all if she didn't! - and that's her right. If she has or will, great. If she hasn't, that's her choice, but at least we provided her the opportunity should she want to. As I mentioned below, if the Baptist Church or the Jewish faith or some religious group in Africa wanted to perform a ceremony in my honor that granted me benefits in Heaven - go right ahead! I won't stop them and I'll even thank them for caring enough about little 'ol me to do it. Most importantly, if I think it's incorrect, wrong, silly, whatever: then it's not true and what am I worried about.
I understand that people don't agree with some or all of the doctrine of our church - that's their choice and they have a right to their opinion and to believe as they wish. For those that think our religion is not true, this "issue" should really be a non-issue. We do it out of service and love *should* people accept it, *should* they find out in the after life that all this is true. If it's not, how was any harm done?
As an former member of the church I DO understand people have the right to accept or not accept in the next life...If you reread my last paragraph I said exactly that.
DeleteThe point is that people who are not Mormon (LDS) DO take offence to this...That is why there is such an outcry over it right now. Just because YOU personally do not, or would not take offence to something being performed for you after your death does not give you the right to speak for everyone else. All I am saying is the whole baptism thing is the LDS belief, NOT everyone elses...Just because YOU believe you are doing a kind and loving act does not mean you have the right to do that act for everyone else. It does show an arrogance. That's why it rubs people the wrong way.
I'm calling myself anon #2...
DeleteThanks for that post Jenny. I am from a similair situation... born and raised in the church... married in the temple... recently discovered the truth about the church i tuought i knew from very reliable sources (the church archives, historians,well sourced books). Whatever I thought the "anti" stuff was, I never once thought it might really be the truth. My point is, now that I have become disenchanted with the church, I see baptisms for the dead not only as a huge.violation of rights, but an enormous waste of time. There are way better ways to serve people - LIVING people- then baptizing people who are dead. How would you, Lexi, as a mormon feel if you found out someone had baptized Abby by proxy into another religion? Probably annoyed that they would just do that without your permission.
I am sorry that you have not had your questions answered or you found answers that led you away from the church. How ever if you are happier then you made the right choice for you.
DeleteAs for the topics you brought up about the Mountain Meadow Massacre, and the Temple ceremonies and how they tie into Masonry. I have look into these topics and have found answers that not only strengthened my faith but made me understand just how amazing the work is.
You get what you are looking for, if you are looking to not believe then you will find something that you feel will discount everything. Faith is not jumping in and having all the answers handed to you. Most members follow the church not blindly but because of something they have found for themselves.
I hope you find answers to what you are looking for out there.
Kylie I agree you get what you are looking for. I myself am looking for the truth. I am not looking to prove the Mormon Church wrong...But when you really do your research there is no way you can prove the Mormon Church correct. And I realize that is where Faith comes into play...But the truth is the LDS Church has a very disturbing past...A past that cannot be explained away. You know how the Church encourages people to read the Book of Mormon and then pray about it to see if it is true...I would encourage Mormons to dig deep into the History...Not to prove the Church wrong, but to just really, truly know it...And then come back and tell me you are still a very firm believer. My experience is LDS people don't dig to deep...And any bad press out there is simply made up and lies...They are the ones who do not open their minds fully to whats out there. I have been on both sides of this...I am looking with an open mind. Both sides of my Family are very devout Members, and "breaking away" from the Church is not easy...So I do not do this lightly.
DeleteAnyway, thank you for the respectful comment. I do not mind discussing things with people even if we disagree.
There is a common belief out there that mormon women are treated as less because we can't hold the priesthood or hold the higher offices. People think this needs to be changed and it's degrading and what not. I do not feel that way and know that most people in my church don't feel that way. Yet someone always wants to fight that battle for me, and vilify the church in my name for something I'm fine with! There's no war here!
ReplyDeleteIf someone has a problem with Having their ancestors baptized, they have every right to not have their names submitted. If those who are baptized and choose on the other side not to accept it, let them be offended. We don't need to fight battles for people who are not in need of a perso al warrior.
I knew it... I had a feeling you were LDS the first time I read your blog ;) So with that said I'M GOING TO WAIVE MY MORMON FLAG HIGH IN THE SKY HERE! =)I've actually had readers stop reading my Autism blog once they realized I am LDS...no really, I'm serious. I don't know how you did this post knowing what others were going to say. I can't even open a discussion like this for several reasons 1) I am very passionate about the LDS Church 2) I know my scriptures like all the freckles I have ;) so I have no problem pointing out to someone a scripture to prove their wrong <--- 3) that's my other problem, the desire to prove my point. I will say this though...I joined the church when I was 18, that was 9 years ago. Prior to that I was Southern Baptist and have attended other churches, there were too many holes in the doctrine that was taught that I wouldn't even know where to start. When I became LDS all of those holes were filled. This wonderful amazing church has brought me a wonderful husband and 3 beautiful sweeties and has given me an understanding that I would have never else had. Sometimes not everything can be explained by a scripture, just like science can't explain our world all the time. Sometimes it's that tiny voice in your heart that says "This is right. This is where you need to be." So you guys can debate and argue as long as you wish, but that little feeling that each of us LDS members has in our hearts is something that no one can argue you with ;)
ReplyDeletePS. I can't be held accountable for typos or misspellings after 8 pm ;)
DeleteAmen, sistah!
DeleteSo agree with you Ashlie...amen! :)
DeleteSo I'm not Mormon, but I appreciate this post, especially because you wrote it in response to a comment that was written having little to do with your blog content. (I mean, I'm sort of a huge fan, and I don't recall anything other than "Mormon Kelle Hampton" about anything LDS on here!) Even for those of us who disagree on points of faith, I appreciate being educated.
ReplyDeleteJenny - "As for baptisms for the dead...What do you say to Article of Faith #11..."We claim the privilege of worshiping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscious, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, and what they may......
ReplyDeleteUNTIL they're dead and we go ahead and baptize them Mormon because that's what WE believe! Not good. It's wrong. Plain and simple wrong."
This seems to be a common theme among people who take offense to baptism for the dead. Frankly I'm a little (but only a little) surprised that a person raised in the LDS Church miss-understands the teaching of the Church so badly.
Baptism for the dead does not make the dead Mormon against their will any more than it is making you Mormon against your will. Free agency continues on after death. Furthermore the Church never claims they are Mormons, only that under the theology they now have the ability to chose a path that otherwise would be closed to them.
It seems like no one read my last paragraph through...I DO understand that a person has the right to accept or not accept this act done for them in the next life...I DO get that this does not make them a Mormon...All I am say is the very act of it rubs people the wrong way.
DeleteAnd don't ever say I don't understand the Church teachings because I do.
Jenny - I'm not sure why your last paragraph would change the fact that the paragraph I quoted contains a fallacy that I believe is the basis for this entire missunderstanding.
DeleteIt does matter what we believe, why we do what we do is as important as the fact that we do it, and what we are doing is not "Baptising them Mormon" so that they no longer have the right to "worshiping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscious".
I don't think the very act of it rubs people the wrong way, I think way people describe it rubs people the wrong way. Of course someone is going to be offended if they are told that the Mormons are baptizing their dead relatives and claiming that they are Mormon, who wouldn't? But that isn't what we believe, it's not what we teach, and it's not what we say. A clear explanation of our actual beliefs inevitably makes people step back and say "oh, is that all? Well that's different than what I thought it was."
Then add to that an explanation that these are rare instances performed by individual members in clear violation of a Church policy that has been in place for nearly two decades...
and, well, I guess I have a hard time seeing why you have to "explain away" anything. People are people, Mormons too.
Ah yes, lol...I myself did reread my own last paragraph and you are right I did say we are baptizing them Mormon...lol...I didn't mean to say it like that because I DO understand that that is not what is happening. And I agree with you again that perhaps that is what people do think and that's why they get upset over it.
DeleteThat said though...Even the people, like myself, who DO understand the entire Baptisms for the dead concept and why the Church does it, finds it offensive in a way. The only thing I hear The LDS people say is "why should it matter, they have a choice to accept it or not?"...It clearly does matter because people don't like the idea of it. I don't know why it is hard for some people to not see that.
And for the record I do not judge the entire Church by a few individuals...I am very well aware that Mormons are people too and being people they are prone to make mistakes just like everyone else...I get it. And why do I need to explain away anything? I don't know...I guess thats just who I am.
Fair enough. We all have our beliefs, Catholics believe everybody not baptized Catholic automaticaly goes to hell, Muslims belive that martyrs get 70 virgins in Heaven, Jews believe that they are Gods ONLY chosen people, Jehova's Whitness believe that only 144,000 people will get into heaven and if you don't believe in their Jehova you aren't one of them, it seems pretty arbitrary to me to get all worked up over this (or anything else we believe) just because it involves a ceremony where we "pretend" to be someone who is dead.
DeleteLike I said before, I am almost certain that the reason most people (not you) don't like the idea of it is because the idea they have of it is based on ignorance and false assumptions. Every person I have explained it to has admitted that their original opinions on the matter were based on false information and assumptions, and wondered why the Church hasn't just come out and said it....even though (as was shown in this blog post) it has, repeatedly.
I had been hearing about this recently and it took me a bit to figure out why something I had considered to be a non issue that was taken care of years ago was suddenly back in the spotlight. I applaud you for standing up and correcting the misinformation and putting your faith out there for random people on the internet to criticize. I am LDS too but not quite as brave as you when it comes to being quite as open as you are about my faith. You rock and I live reading your blog.
ReplyDelete"Even if the church DID do proxy baptisms for Holocaust victims, why would it even matter to someone who does not believe the way we do? "
ReplyDeleteTHIS. A million times THIS. I get why we don't do baptisms for Holocaust victims - and we shouldn't, and by and large we don't, except for a few that don't know/don't care and that's on them...all that stuff you said.
But I've never understood what the uproar about baptisms for the dead was all about. All the dislike of it and offense *only validates the truth of it*. By protesting it so much you only grant it more credibility. If I, as an LDS person, found out that some tribe or church somewhere wanted to perform a ceremony that granted me some benefits in the after life (however they define that in their group) go right ahead! You don't even have to wait until I'm dead for all I care. Because if I think it's a bunch of hogwash, *what do I care that people are doing it?* It doesn't mean anything. If I actually cared and am offended, I think it actually has power over me (now or later) and perhaps I should be examining that religion more closely and joining! And to another point, thank you random group for caring about my salvation (according to your standards). If it's true, great - I'm covered. If it's not, what harm did it to me whatsoever?
Now if performing baptisms required us abducting people and forcing them to be baptized, well, that would be another story. This is something we desire to out of goodness for our brothers and sisters throughout the history. As stated earlier, we also believe that even when we perform these proxy ordinances the person STILL has the opportunity whereever they are in the hereafter to not accept it. Double covered - if you don't believe in it, no power over you. If you find out in the afterlife that this was all true and you STILL don't want to accept it: still no power over you.
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ReplyDeleteOk, so I have to say this. Lexi I apologize for kind of stating my opinions about the Church on YOUR blog. In all fairness that was probably inappropriate of me, because it is YOUR blog, not my own...And I am sure your blog isn't intended for this type of debate, and I have no right to comment on here about something you believe strongly in.
ReplyDeleteFor all the LDS people on here the truth is I have struggled with my faith. After spending much time researching the Church I am 99.5% sure it is not true...And yet there is that .5% that holds me firm...And it bothers me. If I don't believe the Church why can I not just walk away? What is it that holds me there? I don't know.
The reason I got riled up with this post is because it has been in the past two weeks that I have been doing my most heartfelt searching.
I am saying this because I am not Anti Mormon. I am not a bitter Ex LDS person. It's just I have a hard time explaining away some of the Churches biggest controversies...Hell even the Church has trouble when answering to their past.
Anyway again Lexi, I do apologize. I don't have the right to come onto your blog and stir shit up. So my apology is sincere.
Jenny, I know you say you are questioning the LDS faith... but do you still believe you have a Heavenly Father that loves you and wants what is best for YOU? If you do... have you prayed about this with an open heart and mind? The Church is NOT perfect because the people are not perfect. BUT the Gospel Principles are true... and deep down you must believe that, and that is why that 5% won't let you let it go. Maybe instead of focusing on all the bad you should spend a few days thinking about the Truth in the teachings of the church. Then... look back to the bad things that have happened. Don't go ask someone else... pray about it to get answers to your questions about why things happened. I know you will receive your answers. I have!
Delete*sigh*...Like I said, I grew up in the LDS Church. My entire family is in the Church. Growing up my entire world was the Church, I ate, slept, breathed the Gospel...I am NOT focusing on all the bad. I want you to understand that. I am simply looking at the Church as a whole and not just what we are taught to believe. And yes, I am seeking out answers to questions I have...Seeking out answers does not mean I am only looking for the bad in the Church. I have respect for the Church...If anyone reads through my comments they will see I capitalize everything in regards to the Church...Out of respect.
DeleteHave I prayed about it? You bet I have. Do I still believe in Heavenly Father...I believe in something, I just don't know what that something is. Yes there is that .5% that holds me...But does that come from the difficulty in breaking away from the only world I have ever known my entire life? Everything I grew up being told was the truth? Or is it true? I don't know.
Just to clarify, anyone can attend Mormon church services held in our meeting houses. We attend every Sunday and those meetings are completely 100% open to visitors. You can find one locally on lds.org.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lds.org/library/page/display/0,7098,352-1-359-1,00.html
The temple is different. Only members who are ALSO temple recommend holders (not even all members enter) can enter the temple to participate in ordinances there. Most members attend the temple to perform ordinances a couple of times per calendar year. Some do attend daily, some attend weekly, monthly, etc. Some only attend to participate in ordinances for living loved ones. Not all work done in the temple is proxy work, when someone enters the temple for the first time, they perform their own ordinance work.
I like to think of the afterlife as a large train station with three different trains going to three different destinations (none of which are hell all of which are a part of eternal rest). When the time comes someone approaches the ticket counter to determine their destination. At that point the ticket counter clerk may say, "If you would like, there is a ticket to this other destination provided for you." You of course can then say, "Yes, I would like to take that ticket to the ticket only destination." Or you can say, "No thank you." And continue on your journey with no other interruption.
When we do baptism by proxy we are simply making a ticket available for anyone who may decide on the other side that they would like to join us, and we offer it to them because we would like them to be able to join us. There aren't going to be denominations in heaven. No one is making anyone else a "mormon" nor do we count those baptized as members anywhere, other than to make note of work that has been performed so we don't repeat the same proxy.
This is all it is, the offering of a ticket if someone so chooses to accept it in their journey.
Lexi, I really liked what you had to say on this topic. You are a brave and strong woman.
Great metaphor!
DeleteI am just going to say I would love to keep responding to some of the comments being made to me...I don't mind discussing the Church with anyone on here...But I do not want Lexi to feel we have hijacked her blog to debate the Mormon Church...So until she says its ok to continue to talk on here I am not going to say anything out of respect for her and her beliefs. If she doesn't mind I will continue to talk with everyone. I'll check back on here later to see if its ok to keep up the conversation.
ReplyDeleteThank you to everyone who respectfully commented to me. I am one who can agree to disagree :)
Jenny, you are brave! As a person who also grew up LDS, but questioned a lot of stuff as I got older, and now don't believe its totally true. I'm not usually one to jump in on a debate, but here's what I've come to believe. If I treat people the way I want to be treated. If I'm a good person and don't lie, steal or cheat, I'm going to go to the same place as everyone else. I don't hate on anyone and their religion. We are all different, thats what makes life interesting. It would be boring if we were all the same.
DeleteWe don't need to get snippy at someone who may believe differently. It is what it is!
Jenny, you haven't hijacked anything. I wrote the post hoping to help those who do not believe the way we do to gain some understanding. I have no problem with this conversation. You have questions. There's absolutely nothing wrong with questions.
ReplyDeleteIt bothers me when people have said that they didn't know I was LDS or that I have only mentioned it a few times. I'm obviously not being a very good member if that's true. I haven't specifically posted on here about my religion lately, Jenny, because in all honesty, I have had the same questions as you. I still have questions. I totally get what you are going through. Leaving the church is not easy- especially for people whose entire families are LDS. It's every bit our religion as our culture and lineage. That is tough. I understand that. I haven't posted about it or even put the little button that's now there on the side stating I'm LDS because I didn't feel like I was in a position to be an ambassador or an example of our faith because of my own rebelliousness.
Then I got the comment I did yesterday. God really does work in mysterious ways. When I got that comment, my hands started to shake. I've spent the last few months questioning everything. When I saw that post, something inside me woke up. I knew what they were saying was false. I felt attacked. And that surprised me, to be quite honest.
And here's what it comes down to for me. I love the Church. I have seen the person it has helped me to be, my husband, my family. I've seen the things that I've gone through- from losing my father at 13, 2.5 years of chronic pain, 2 children with special needs, etc- and wonder where I would be without the support of the people of the church as well as the knowledge that God knows me personally. When all else fails and I'm in the midst of a spiritual temper tantrum, I can't explain away God's hand in my life. I doubt that you can, either.
I have questions. We all do. What I'm working on is separating the doctrine of the gospel from the policies of the church. The people in the church that make mistakes and the Gospel itself. I'm praying to know the truth for myself. If you've been there, and didn't get the feeling like it's right for you, there's nothing else that can be said. I just hope you find happiness in whatever spiritual realm you pursue (and then I'll baptize the heck out of you after you die :) (did you see that you made me do a smiley emoticon...I'm so angry right now). But I hope in your journey you can see that the church makes so many people SO happy. It teaches such fantastic things like service, compassion, healthy and clean living, and faith. I don't ever want to take that away from anyone.
I would love to talk to you. I think we have a lot in common. Until then, I will pray for your immortal soul. ahahahahaa.
This is beautiful. My throat got so tight and my eyes burned and watered. You made me CRY, Lexi. All of what you wrote here is true and beautiful and powerful. Thank you.
DeleteYou're so much braver than I am Lexi and talking about religion. Religion and politics are two subjects that I don't like talking/arguing/debating about. I am Mormon too...been my whole life. I've been inactive for a little while and have gone back to church every now and again...but still not fully active now. But I still believe that the church is true and even though I may have questions about some stuff...I have faith that I'll get the answers I need through prayer(now if my lazy ass would just be more motivated to pray more, maybe I would get some answers, haha! :) I love my ward(well most of them)...even though I don't go to church...there are some great ladies and friends that don't make me feel bad for not being there and are very friendly/welcoming. And my home teachers are great! I couldn't live without the church in my life. Even now when I'm going through my rebellious stage(I think I'm making up for all the goody to shoo years of growing up) :) I enjoy reading your blog and all your fun stories and stuff. Just keep being you and posting cute pictures of your kids...they really are cute...Abby is adorable! :) I love that you're so open...way to go! :)
DeleteI just want to go on record that visiting someone's blog and leaving a comment about something that has NOTHING to do with what they blog about is just a really shitty thing to do.
ReplyDeleteIf someone came to my blog and read about my two sons with severe autism and then left a comment asking how I feel about the ruthless clubbing of baby seals in the arctic I'd probably tell them to kiss my ass and keep to the topic of the post.
However, this "anonymous" person (which, can I just say that if you are going to ask a question about a bloggers's religion, politics, or lifestyle choice you need to put your big girl panties on and OWN your words by using your real name!!!) didn't ask about clubbing baby seals. She called Lexi on the carpet for her religious beliefs and asked her to defend them.
I think Lexi should be congratulated for standing up for her religion and for doing it front and center on her blog. Lexi also showed considerable restraint and respect for "anonymous" by not calling her an asshat but since this is not my blog I will.
"Anonymous"...what you did was a hit below the belt and you should be ashamed of yourself. If you want to have this question answered bring it up on your own blog or hey, here's a novel idea....Read the Book of Mormon or visit Mormon.org and get your answers there. Don't go trolling onto someone's blog asking questions that are in no way relevant to the post.
Ugh.
**BTW, I am referring to the "Anonymous" person on the previous post. Not those listed on this one.
Thank you and I approve this message.
I approve it as well. Let's start a SuperPAC.
DeleteRight on, Mama! I got your back!
DeleteA-freaking-men! Thank you!
DeleteI LOVE THIS RESPONSE!!! "Sunday" I love you and the use of the word asshat. Lexi, this is a great post and am grateful you have the ability to share so many great and wonderful opinions and information on your blog. You are a great example. I also agree 120% that one person's post on the last post was completely irrelevant and had nothing to do with anything that was discussed. Keep up the good work Lex Luthor!
DeleteGreat response Sunday...AMEN! :)
DeleteAnon #2- If someone told me they had done a proxy baptism for my daughter into another religion I honestly would not care one bit. I don't believe in that religion, so it wouldn't make a difference to what I DO believe in. She could be physically baptized here into another religion and I would know that it would not be binding if she did not choose it for herself.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, like it's been said, if someone did the work for me in another religion, I'd be grateful that 1. They believed and loved their own religion enough, and loved me enough to want me to be a part of it and 2. That they cared enough for me to go to Heaven if it turns out I am deceived in my religion (or if they just don't think that I've already got my get out of hell free card...)
Oh ya, I also wanted to agree with that as well. When Jax was so sick, and we were praying for him to survive, I didn't care what religion came and gave him a blessing. The more the merrier. It certainly made me feel a lot better!
DeleteLacey, I always check in on your blog to see how Jax is doing. Just wanted to tell you that...
DeleteAlso I can relate to what you wrote here...When Russell was first diagnosed after birth with Ds I was PISSED at God...I told my Mom and my Husband that if anyone dared mention God to me I would kill them...Russell spent 3 weeks in the NICU...At our lowest I was being told he was going to be flown to Vancouver for open heart surgery...I was devastated...And where did I turn? To God. I was desperate to contact the missionaries to have them bless Russell. I tried to get a hold of the Bishop on our area...Not only for Russell...But for myself. I thought of the comfort I would feel having a Priesthood member lay their hands on me and give me a blessing...sigh...as you can see I am very torn with the Church. I honestly don't know what to believe.
I guess I'll be Anonymous #3. I converted to the LDS Church as an adult, after much searching. Born, raised and still living in Florida, I have held high-level positions ("callings") throughout the years, and have counseled with thousands of members of the church. I have served as a mission president, where I presided over 280 young missionaries for 36 months. Say what you want about Joseph Smith, or any other ancient or modern-day prophet, but you must accept the fact that they are imperfect men. ONE single man walked the earth without weakness/sin, and that was Jesus Christ. I did not join the LDS church because I thought Joseph Smith was perfect, or even because of Jospeh Smith. I joined the church because the Holy Ghost bore witness to me that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Accordingly, the prophet who brought this book to light is true prophet of God, and the church with which that prophet affiliates is the true church of God. Find out for yourself. Don't take my word or any other Mormon's word for it. Ask God.
ReplyDeleteI have one other thing to say. Never, in all my years as a leader, did I encounter a member who has fallen away who had been: 1) studying and pondering the scriptures DAILY; 2) faithfully fasting each month and attending the temple REGULARLY; 3) keeping the Sabbath day holy (ponder the blessing of Sabbath observance found in Isaiah 58:14); 4) watching movies/TV and listening to music that invites the Spirit; and 5) doing family history work and experiencing the Spirit of Elijah, which fosters an environment for beyond-the-veil whisperings. Those members who live by these 5 principles DO NOT fall away or lose their testimonies. If you have fallen away, or are experiencing doubts, the Lord invites you to recommit yourself and apply these eternal principles. Those who accept this challenge return to Christ and will have their eternal reward and glory. If you're reading this and are a member of the church who is not doing these 5 things, start now, or you will not have the strength to withstand what is coming. If you are from another faith, the Lord invites you, and I challenge you, to read the Book of Mormon and ask in sincere prayer if it is true. May God bless you all.
Thank you for this. You are absolutely right. I would love to say that I have been doing everything right and have still had doubts. But I'm not. But I'm committing to do better today and everyday. I'm a slow learner in this area and have a naturally rebellious spirit. But that's no excuse. Thank you for these reminders.
DeleteLacey- we still pray for Jax. I think about you a lot. You are a remarkable person and I am lucky to have your example.
ReplyDeleteI hate getting into conversations about this for a couple of reasons. I am not as familiar with the scriptures as I could be. I am not good at defending my faith because my faith is simple. I also am not always the best member of the Church neither am I always true to my faith. All of these reasons are things I am working on. I do have a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do I have questions about some things? Absolutely. It has been mentioned here already but I will repeat it. the gospel of Jesus Christ is not the Church. The gospel is perfect, the Church is not because it is made up of human beings that are not perfect. If I were to base my testimony on the people of the church, it would be a roller coaster of ups and downs because I know members that are amazing examples and followers of Christ and I know many that are not. I try to live my life in a way that makes other people wonder what is different about me (in a good way, hopefully!). There is so much more I could be doing. I am rambling. I didn't want to stay mute on this discussion. Our faith will be increasingly attacked because we are having to separate ourselves from the world as the line between what is right and what is wrong becomes more blurry.
ReplyDeleteP.s. Lexi, I am pretty sure you have your get out of Hell free card - that's why Heavenly Father gave you Abby.
I wouldn't really say your religion is being attacked...It is being questioned. You have to admit there is no other religion on this earth quite like it. It has a very interesting background, it has beliefs that none other religions do. Asking questions should not be seen as attacking. People are trying to understand it and they cannot fully with out questioning its teachings.
DeleteI feel the same as you Tandy...it's like you read my mind. :)
DeleteLexi I am so glad you don't mind my comments I was very worried I might offend you by speaking out. I really appreciate your comment above and letting me know that you yourself have asked the same questions. And for the record, lol, I have been to both yours and Lacy's blog off and on over the past two years and I suspected both of you had and LDS connection! HA! So you don't even have to throw it out there, people can just feel it from you...So that means you are a good Mormon whether you like it or not! lol
ReplyDeleteOverall the LDS Church is amazing. I will not deny that. The people are good kind people...They have good clean values, how can that be a bad thing? It's not, it's great. I just struggle with the History like I stated above. If I cannot explain something away it bothers me. You said EXACTLY what I am feeling...You are trying to separate the Doctrines of the Gospel from the policies of the Church...YES, exactly what I am struggling with.
Here's the thing. I don't agree with all the Church teaches. I do not like anything to do with the Temple. My husband and I are not sealed together and what bothers me is I cannot, and will not believe in a God that would separate my family in the afterlife because we are not sealed in a temple. What kind of God is that? Not to mention I am not "worthy" to even enter the Temple...Why?? Because I like to drink red wine...So did Jesus, but whatever...I like coffee...With so many other issues, like lying and stealing and murder and all that...Why on earth would I want to go to a church who looks down on me and deems me "Unworthy" to enter a Temple? Also I cuss a lot...So I myself am not a "good" Mormon...BUT...I AM a good person. I am.
And I don't need anyone telling me that all I need to do is stop these things and keep the word of wisdom to get into the Temple...Bottom line is I don't want in. So don't try to convert me to it! LOL
To Anon #3...The tone at the end of your comment irks me a bit...What the hell is it exactly that is coming that I will not be able to withstand? I don't believe in the 3 Kingdoms...AT ALL. I just don't. And I am not afraid of burning in hell just because I do not believe every thing the Church teaches. Because I am a GOOD person.
I wonder why all civil marriages end in “Til death do you part”? Obviously the other churches realize they do NOT have the power to seal the marriage beyond this life.
DeleteYou want to explain to me why people bother getting married for time and all eternity when many of them end up getting temple divorces later on...And then explain when some one goes on and remarries and is once again sealed for time and all eternity to the new person...And then explain to me where all the children from these marriages go? Who do they end up being sealed too for time and all eternity...The old family, the new family...Who?
DeleteAnd I know it is difficult to determine a persons tone of voice when you are not face to face with them and only reading their words on the computer screen...I just want to assure you I am not being ignorant or anything, I truly am just asking...Because when I was a member of the Church I was told we do not need to worry about this topic, that all will be sorted out in the next life. And I think that sucks. If I am going to take some sacred oath, especially if it has the words ETERNITY in it...I want to know everything there is to know about it.
My understanding/belief on the sealing ordinance is that you are actually sealed to the promise of the blessings of the Celestial Kingdom. If you look at it that way, it makes more sense. I know that there are so many situations where this is an issue. I have a friend who is sealed to her first husband, but he died before they had any children and she had kids with her next husband. That is just one such example where we don't know the details of how it will be worked out. I have faith that God has it all under control. Like I said above, simple faith. I don't feel that I'm ignorant, I just believe that my lack of understanding on some of these things isn't reason enough for me to not believe in the gospel as a whole. Nor do I have issues with those who don't want to accept the things they don't have complete understanding about.
DeleteAnon #3 to Jenny: In this thread you declared that you "grew up in the LDS Church. . . . went to church every single Sunday of [your] life. . . . went to YW every Tuesday . . . did the early Morning Seminary before school during the week . . . ," etc. Unequivocally, you know that I'm referring to the belief that we are living in the end of times, days that will try and test disciples of Christ, days wherein the Adversary will unleash all that opposes anything sacred or true. If you detected a negative/preachy tone in my comments, it is an error on my part; I failed to articulate and covey my true intent---to echo the words of the prophets and invite others to better their lives. Until I was 25 years old, I walked a wide, broken path of which I hope I have truly repented. In those days, I loathed organized religion and proselytization. After reading the Book of Mormon, I have since applied the aforementioned principles and it has brought nothing but light and happiness into my life. Jenny, it is not happenstance that we meet on a blog thread. I only chimed in because my wife, who follows this blog---we have a grandson with DS---asked me to. Further, referring to your most recent comment, of course you're not "burning in hell just because [you] do not believe every thing the Church teaches." You don't believe that and the church doesn't teach that.
DeleteThe tone of your comments reflects a "good person," as you've avowed, filled with great passion and compassion. Jenny, come back and try it again. As a (retired) physicist and university professor, I have formed many theories based on repeated observations and testing of widely-accepted hypotheses, only to return years later and form a different theory. You have nothing to lose, Jenny. A ward and stake would benefit greatly from a woman with your courage to speak out. Return, Jenny and bring that red-wine-drinkin', cussin', ain't-going-to-the-temple attitude with ya. :) Oh, how you remind me of myself, when I wore a much younger man's clothes. Your barbed wit and enthusiasm are refreshing and intoxicating, especially to an 78-year-old physicist. My grandchildren say I'm a nerd; I embrace it. Ha! Come back, Jenny. Retest your theory as I did. Respectfully, William (Anon #3)
Your words are so good to my soul. Thank you for sharing.
DeleteAnon #3...Your comment has moved me to tears. I feel you understand what I am trying to say, or what I am feeling at least. Thank you for taking the time to respond. And you caught me...Haha...Yes I did know exactly what you were talking about...I know you meant we are living in the last days. The truth is you and I both no there is no place in the LDS Church for someone like me. Some one who questions...Some one who does not agree with the Temple and the things done inside. You either believe, or you do not. It is black and white...There are no shades of grey. I would not be welcome in the LDS Church because I could not follow it whole heartedly.
DeleteI have more I wouldn't mind speaking to you about...Just not on here. I think my email address is on my profile if you want to drop me a private line.
To all the people who are annoyed that this all turned into a discussion on the Mormon religion, please keep in mind Lexi's post was about some of the LDS beliefs...Last I knew blogs were about having meaningful discussion. Sharing ideas or opinions is not a bad thing. I think everyone on here was very respectful of each other. Actually this was one of the most mature discussion I have ever seen about the LDS Church...Although the fact that some Anonymous person even questioned Lexis belief on a post that had nothing to do with that topic whatsoever was kind of shitty. lol
Lexi you have done a great job with this post and thank you for allowing some of us to discuss things on here. That was kind of you....we now turn the blog back to you! LOL
I read your blog because you are such an advocate for you children not to get into religious discussions. Whether or not I agree with your religion is irrelevant to the topics you discuss.
ReplyDeleteI think that there are about 12-ish "sticking points" that come up again and again with people who are "questioning" or challenging the Church. These are things that, on their surface, might make us question how inspired our church leaders have been throughout our history. The Church doesn't try to silence people's earnest questions (though some individuals, when confronted with something they don't fully understand or don't have the answers to, might get defensive and tell you to quit digging or something)--on the contrary, we're told that our testimony is very personal and we need to come by it all on our own, through testing Gospel principles and prayer, and not relying on others' testimonies or affirmations. I have had several periods where I've come across some of the "deep, dark secrets" of the Church, and my testimony was subsequently shaken. When I've turned to sources that have an agenda that might include discrediting the Church, I've felt more confused and troubled. But I've found that most of the answers I seek to these questions can be answered on lds.org. There's also a great website--fairlds.org, which is a group of LDS scholars and scriptorians who devote themselves to answering the questions or accusations people have made against the Church. They don't shy away from any topic, but look at the different issues thoroughly, fairly, and in the proper context, which is really important. There are a couple things that I still don't fully understand from our history, but here's the thing: if anything incorrect *was* ever preached by Church leaders, which subsequently led members astray, those leaders will be severely judged and rebuked on the other side. I can let it go and know that God will sort it all out in the end. And then I can focus on the important stuff, like how to live my own life in accordance with the teachings of Christ and His prophets. When I read the Bible and the Book of Mormon, I feel a peace and a calm, and a reassurance that these are important principles I need to apply in my own life. When I listen to the talks in General Conference, I don't feel brainwashed or uneasy--I feel peace and hope, and I'm uplifted and inspired to do better and be better, and to draw closer to God for everything. And during those times when I've really been doubting or questioning, I've listened to or read the words of these leaders and thought to myself, "So.... what evil, WRONG thing are they conning me into here? To love my neighbor? To serve others? To become a better, more Christ-like person?" And I've realized that in spite of any questions I may have, living by the principles which are taught in this church brings me incredible joy that doesn't come from anything else I can find in the world. I'll join with "Anon #3 (William)" up there and extend an invitation to any who are doubting or questioning or challenging the Church to give the Gospel of Jesus Christ a sincere chance by *proving it* to themselves. You can't prove it right or wrong for yourself by standing on the outside and relying on others to convince you one way or the other--you've got to get into the thick of it, live it and study it and pray about it (all the "Sunday School answers--pray, read scriptures, go to church, etc.), to know for yourself whether or not it's really true. If you're sincerely doing those things, you'll be open to receiving inspiration about them. There is most definitely an element of faith in all things spiritual, but our faith doesn't have to be perfect. God will make up whatever is lacking in *anything*, through the atonement of Christ.
ReplyDeleteMelissa, just wanted to say I love a lot of what you wrote above.
DeleteThat was a large paragraph.
DeleteI'm a jerk. Melissa, that was beautiful. I don't call you "Melissa the Awesome" for nothing.
DeleteJenny, I really am glad that you posted here. In the beginning, I was really tempted to delete your first post about all of the things that trouble you. Because many of those things are what have troubled me and others. I didn't want it to be something that drove people from the church-that's the last thing I'd want with a discourse on this blog. But I have really eaten up the conversation. So many things I needed to see and learn myself. I think it was very brave of you.
My wonderful brother in law said something super awesome to me a couple of weeks ago. We had a little big of a disagreement on our family site. I won't get into that. Basically there was one point of church POLICY (not doctrine) that I'm having a hard time with. He has recently come out and told his family that he doesn't believe in the church anymore. He called me and said to not let something like that policy stand in my way of going to church. He said he still goes and tries to get something out of the meeting. He reminded me of all the GOOD there is in the church. I've been "stuck" on a few pieces of history and policy that bother me. It doesn't mean that EVERYTHING else is SO GOOD. I go and learn how to be a better person, a better mother, a better follower of Christ. And in recent weeks (when Abby hasn't been sick) I've realized that it isn't just about me. I think about what dark pockets of the world the church kept me out of as a youth. I would have SURELY been a drug addict teenage mother without the church- I was almost one WITH the church. I can't even imagine. My kids need the gospel as much as I do. And they love it. I'm not going to take that away from them because of my own questions.
Just as there's room for everyone in God's kingdom, there's room for you at church. If we lived close, I would gladly sit by you (and we could snicker at the lady with the gargantuan bosoms). If I haven't been struck by lightening there yet, I'm pretty sure you're safe.
Jenny, this is going to sound so full of cheese- but I feel A LOT of love for you and what you are going through. I don't think any of this is coincidence. This post, the people who have come to comment, etc.
William- my kids are short a grandfather- would you like to be a surrogate? You sound amazing.
You're right about the large paragraph. It's huge, like a massive wall of words. I need to quit commenting from my phone, where I can only see about 4 lines at a time and can't see the urgent need for paragraph breaks.
DeleteI love God.
ReplyDeleteGod's in my mouth?
DeleteHey Shelby- you should write a post about when Camryn got saved at the Baptist preschool. Mom reminded me of it yesterday. Funniest thing ever.
DeleteI really liked this discussion. I read every last post and I never do that if they are 10 or more long. Jenny I am inspired by your willingness to open up on what can be such a personal subject. And there has been a change from your first post to your last.
ReplyDeleteLexi, It amazes me how through your blog you can touch so many people. Me included.
I am LDS and I hold my faith very dear to me. I have appreciated all the comments and questions. As one commenter said above. This has been a good healthy discussion about religion and the LDS faith.
Hey, I know I'm late to the party, but I did want to address something that was brought up in the beginning (sort of) the comments. The person (and I'm sorry, I don't have time to scroll back and see who) talked about how mormons don't get that we are only saved by grace.
ReplyDeleteWell, I would just like to reassure you, that actually, yes, we DO believe that we are totally, and completely saved by grace. However, the way that we differ from the other Christians, is that we know that we are being saved FOR something. Contrary to popular belief, we *don't* believe that we can earn entrance into heaven by our actions, but we know that in order to be comfortable in heaven, to feel completely at Home with our Heavenly Father, that we need to be better, and be more of who He knows we can be. We can only do that through His grace, AND by putting our money where our mouth is. It is for that reason that we live our faith, and do all of those things that we're encouraged to do-- not because we are trying to check off a list that wil gaurantee our entrance into heaven, but because we want to be heavenly people.
There is a FANTASTIC talk that was given by Brian Wilcox (BYU professor) called "His Grace is Sufficient" that I can whole-heartedly recommend to both members wanting to learn more, and to those wanting to know what we ACTUALLY believe.
http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=2968
i think everyone questions their religion. for me, questioning is the way i learn something is true or not. not just in regards to religion.
ReplyDeleteanyhow, i had asked someone about feeling doubts or wondering about specific things about the church. the person asked me if i believed in Christ. i replied yes. they then told me that was the first puzzle piece - that everything else will fall into place as it's supposed to in its own time. and the puzzle will eventually be complete. hearing that made me feel better. that i WILL understand things. eventually. i just wish i were more patient. cuz i'm not.
I'm so glad I found your blog! I'm LDS too and also have a son with autism, and I swear (at least in my head) all the time. We have SO much in common!
ReplyDeleteAnyway, thanks for addressing this! It looks like there has been much debate, so I won't add to it. Just think this post is cool.